[00:00:00] This is the Collaborative Connections Podcast, a Society for Oncology Massage Production. Our show explores the intersection between massage therapy and cancer care. Whether you’re a massage therapist specializing in cancer care or an educator, this podcast is for you. Let’s explore the world of oncology massage therapy together.

To learn more about the Society for Oncology Massage. Be sure to visit s4om. org. Remember to follow Collaborative Connections on your favorite podcast player so you never miss an episode, and we would appreciate it if you left a review and ratings so others can learn more about this podcast. If you would like to suggest a future show topic or provide us any feedback, you can email us at podcasts at s4om.

org. Enjoy the show.

Ericka Clinton: Good day, everyone, and welcome to another [00:01:00] episode of Collaborative Connections, a space for sharing and learning, sponsored by the Society for Oncology Massage.

Ericka Clinton: My name, yay, right? Yay!

Kathleen Lisson: Yeah.

Ericka Clinton: be your host today. And on our podcast, we have Kathleen Listen, a massage therapist and educator with so many credentials.

Ericka Clinton: I struggled with what to include in your introduction. But I’ll hit the highlights. Kathleen is a board certified massage therapist. a certified lymphedema therapist, health coach, and registered yoga instructor. She is an NCTMB approved CE provider. author and an S4OM preferred practitioner. Yay, S4OM.

Kathleen Lisson: I

Ericka Clinton: Thank you, Kathleen, so much for joining us today. I want to just [00:02:00] give our folks, A little bit of information, obviously, about you and your work with lymphedema clients, as I think many of our listeners may be considering working with this population or already do. And I think you are a subject matter expert, as we like to say, that can clearly help them understand the joys in working with clients with lymphedema.

Ericka Clinton: Always. First off, I like to learn a little bit about the person that we’re talking to. And obviously people can find you through your website and get a lot of information about you. What led you to working with lymphedema clients?

Kathleen Lisson: am so happy to say that it was my oncology massage education. So I became a massage therapist and in my the hydro, it was actually hydrotherapy in massage school. We had to write. An article about hydrotherapy [00:03:00] and different conditions. So I chose hydrotherapy and cancer because my mother had breast cancer when I was a child.

Kathleen Lisson: She was diagnosed when I was nine and she died when I was about 19. So in that. Research for that paper. I learned that it was very different. Nowadays than it was in the 1980s when my mom had breast cancer. When my mom had breast cancer, it was that radical mastectomy. You went do you took everything out?

Kathleen Lisson: You couldn’t lift anything. They were scared that massage would move through the lymphatic system. You could spread the tumor. And it was a hands off approach. And plus, I was a tiny little child and I had tiny little hands and I couldn’t help my mother. But what I saw was the people at the hospital that could help my mother.

Kathleen Lisson: And I was just I’m just so grateful for them. To be able to help my mother heal [00:04:00] from her cancer and move into survivorship and then take care of her, when she had the cancer again that when I researched this paper and I found out that not only, Is massage helpful for people with cancer and some of the side effects of cancer treatment, but there’s a whole, like there’s a whole study and there’s people who will teach you more about oncology massage.

Kathleen Lisson: I was just like, my hair was on fire. I called luckily, or maybe unluckily one of the people who was on the board of directors for my massage school taught oncology massage. And I called her and said, you know what? I need to get into this class. Like you put this advertisement up in my massage school.

Kathleen Lisson: I need to get into this oncology massage class. And she was like, Kathleen, like you need to have a license. Cause we put you into Morris cancer center at UCSD and you’re actually massaging people in the infusion room. And I was like, can I sit in. [00:05:00] On the, can I learn I just need to learn this right now. Can I sit in and learn and then I’ll get my I’ll see a MTC in California and I’ll get my certification and be legal. And then I can take the hands on portion. She was like, Yes appreciate the enthusiasm. I’m not going to be this lady is not going to stop falling until I let her learn.

Kathleen Lisson: So that was where I learned all about like cancer isn’t 1 disease. It’s 200 and there’s so many different. Blessings that we can give as oncology massage therapist to help some of these, side effects of cancer treatment. So it was that going into the infusion room in Morris Cancer Center and being able to help people when they’re fighting cancer at that very moment, and then interacting with their families and showing maybe the [00:06:00] child who really reminded me of a little me that just, how about I take one of your mom’s hands one of grandma’s hands and massage it.

Kathleen Lisson: You could take the other one and giving that gift of being able to touch your mom and give her some, some. Peace, some solace in the midst of what she’s going through was just so amazing to me. So to answer your question, when I learned in oncology massage, that there’s this side effect called lymphedema and that, it can affect the limb and a quadrant of the body.

Kathleen Lisson: And you just don’t. Because you haven’t learned the MLD of yet just you don’t address that part of the body just let it sit. So you don’t hurt them. And that was just as a massage therapist, I want to treat the whole person. And it was, it’s so important for people to [00:07:00] have the integration back and the acceptance of that body and to feel like their body is 1 whole and not.

Kathleen Lisson: To go to the massage therapist that is only touching the areas that didn’t have cancer. If they have lymphedema and I said, you know what I need to get into the class. So I took Nicola McGill’s class and then I and then it was great because that. gave me the real hands on foundation with the MLD that prepared me to go to the lymphedema therapy class.

Kathleen Lisson: And that was really where I learned nuts and bolts of how the people get the lymphedema treatment. So I know what happened to them when they got, went through the decongestant therapy, and I know the background of the disease that they have of lymphedema. So I feel much more confident treating them for ongoing care.

Kathleen Lisson: So that’s what I do as an oncology massage therapist [00:08:00] is someone after the CDT the, after they get that plateau and they get their garment, they’re like discharged and you can do self MLT and there’s some other things you can do, but basically you don’t need to see your physical therapists every month.

Kathleen Lisson: And so that’s something, if people feel like they need more. MLD and they want to go to a lymphedema informed oncology massage therapist and just get a massage in the way that we can address the entire body. And I can give that, that MLT for the arm and then oncology massage and weave everything together like we do.

Kathleen Lisson: I can give them that massage with the confidence that. I’m not hurting them and they’re confident that I know what I’m doing when I have my hands on them.

Ericka Clinton: That’s wonderful. That’s wonderful. And I think that’s what drives a lot of people is. Some level of personal experience [00:09:00] because unfortunately we are getting really good at fighting cancer, but we are also seeing it impact more and more people. Like it’s like one in two people will either be personally affected by cancer either through their own diagnosis or through someone really close to them, which is an overwhelming statistic.

Ericka Clinton: And of course we don’t see oncology training in most schools. So therapists really have to engage in the reality of people who come into their practice may have a history of cancer. And in terms of being able to treat that person safely is one thing, but I love what you said in terms of being able to treat them entirely.

Ericka Clinton: As opposed to just occluding that part of their body that’s already been through so much and saying, I can’t work with that, but being able to support everything that they’re going through. And that I think [00:10:00] is, where the joy comes in. Is that you can do that for them. So you wrote a book. Yay. And you do a number of presentations about this concept of stress reduction and lymphedema. So tell our listeners why stress reduction is important for a person with lymphedema.

Kathleen Lisson: Yes, absolutely. So the issue with lymphedema is it’s not just a plumbing problem. So lymphedema is a side effect of cancer treatment. It can also be genetic. You can have primary lymphedema as a genetic illness, but we’ll talk about secondary lymphedema. So if they take the lymph node out, or if there’s a radiation side or some of the more powerful chemotherapy drugs can have an effect on the body’s lymphatic system.

Kathleen Lisson: So that will boils down to if they had breast cancer, we’re looking for swelling in the quadrant that they had breast [00:11:00] cancer in the hand, in the arm, in the torso, in the breast. And then what goes along with that is our lymphatic system is part of our immune system. So in the lymph nodes, that’s where your white blood cells are.

Kathleen Lisson: And then there’s the skin quality. So this is your external Barrier towards all these infections and everything in the world that kind of wants to kill you and get in there and get a piece of you. If you’re having skin changes with lymphedema, that is potentially affecting your body’s ability to fight off disease and then also the slowness of the fluid going through the lymphatic system, there’s more a longer transit time.

Kathleen Lisson: before your body and in that lymph node can be like, Hey, there’s something wrong. Like we have to send the army out and the white blood cells out to combat that infection. And the worst part of that, that we see in some of the more very expensive cases of lymphedema is where they will get cellulitis.

Kathleen Lisson: So they’ll get an [00:12:00] infection. And if you have. Lymphedema, and you get cellulitis, that’s something you have to stay on top of, and you might have to go to the hospital to get IV antibiotics, so your body can have help to, get rid of that bacteria get, rid of the, what’s starting to attack you before it potentially goes throughout the entire body, and then your entire life is at risk.

Kathleen Lisson: So that’s setting the, scene of what’s going on with lymphedema. The issue is that stress also affects the lymphatic system and psychological stress can slow wound healing. So your skin, if you have a wound in your skin and you have psychological stress in your life, it’s going to slow down.

Kathleen Lisson: Your ability, your body’s ability to heal from a wound and oxidative stress can also disturb lymphatic contractions in the lymphatic system. So that’s your body, creates like reactive oxygen species and [00:13:00] then you that’s why they really like you to have these antioxidants in the healthy foods because the antioxidants are, doing the work to lower the effect of the reactive oxygen species that happens in your body.

Kathleen Lisson: And so this oxidative stress, if you don’t do enough of those, like the nice things that your doctor is telling you to do, like exercise regularly and eat a healthy diet. And reduce your stress, then that those reactive oxygen species are getting too high. And that can have an effect on the contraction, the pumping of the deeper lymphatics.

Kathleen Lisson: In all of that is all of these different reasons why. It’s important for everyone to reduce stress and it’s especially important for people with lymphedema to reduce stress and people all actually all of our clients as oncology massage therapists, because stress can cause tumor cells to spread faster.

Kathleen Lisson: And these are the number, these are the number one and number two things that people are scared of [00:14:00] when they’re in cancer survivorship. Is it going to come back? Am I going to get lymphedema?

Ericka Clinton: So focusing on them helps them deal with those stressors of reoccurrence or complication. So what are some stress reduction techniques that this population can do?

Kathleen Lisson: Yep, I love that, and I have some, so this is, we’re on YouTube too, right? So on YouTube, but we’re also on a podcast. So I’ll explain as I’m holding things up. So this is my funny sign. It’s basically a sign and it has a big circle on it and it says bang head here. And for some people, this is their stress reduction kit.

Kathleen Lisson: They’re just if you haven’t got a stress reduction kit. This is the funny thing that you’re just going to bang your head on the wall. But I, what I want to do is give you, and that’s what I did in the book, is give you more of a stress reduction kit than just banging your head on the wall.

Kathleen Lisson: So I would like to share two stress [00:15:00] reduction practices so the first one is called five, five breathing, and there’s more information about them in the book as well. That’s one very powerful stress reduction technique that we can do anywhere, anytime. No one’s going to see us doing It It doesn’t require anything expensive.

Kathleen Lisson: It’s something we can share with our families so we can take deep breaths together and doing it regularly Is going to help to balance our nervous system. So we have our sympathetic nervous system, which is like the fight or flight nervous system where we’re attacking or we’re being attacked. And then there’s this parasympathetic rest and digest system that I want to encourage your body to spend more time and just relaxed less reactivity more being centered and focused inside of yourself.

Kathleen Lisson: And I find for myself, I can make better [00:16:00] decisions. When I’m calmer I’m responding instead of reacting, I’m able to take a moment and take thinking and maybe make a good decision rather than a very knee jerk decision. So that’s the first one. The second one is meditation.

Kathleen Lisson: I’ve talked about it as I speak at conferences, and I recommend to my fellow clinicians, if someone comes in to our office, and they’re really just having a tough day. They have lymphedema and they’re talking to you about their symptoms.

Kathleen Lisson: Maybe they’re having a flare up and you can sense they’re just really having a tough time and they come to us because they want our wisdom. But sometimes it’s really valuable to help them access the wisdom inside of themselves and bring them more into a calm and centered space that they can receive the massage.

Kathleen Lisson: With more of their full body and spirit and soul. And [00:17:00] sometimes for our clients, that’s just a really great two or three minutes to take in that intake process in the beginning of the massage that really brings them out from their outside life that they’re fighting all their demons and their dragons to coming in and really getting the best chance to have that nourishing massage session with us.

Ericka Clinton: I always think, and I live in a big city, so there’s all of this stimulus and energy. And I realized that so much of my stress is mitigated by the fact that I forget to breathe, right? And that there’s just so much good feeling by just slowing down and focusing on one thing and really just letting that breath go in and out.

Ericka Clinton: you can feel your heart rate go down. You can even feel like your blood pressure just okay, I just came down 20 points.

Ericka Clinton: you have a very different experience of your body when you’re just focusing [00:18:00] on that one thing, which is respiration.

Ericka Clinton: What do you feel is the most important aspect of your work with lymphoedema clients? We talked about this feeling of wholeness. We talked about the physiological benefits of stress reduction. What feels most important for you in working with this population?

Kathleen Lisson: Yeah. It’s giving them the tools and working with them, which I learned a little in my health coach training with motivational interviewing, which is also a really great class to take, giving them the tools to fit these stress. Reduction practices in their life and that this is my other I’m giving another visual.

Kathleen Lisson: So this is actually a little rope toy that my dog likes to play with. So my visual is, get fit these stress reduction practices in your life before you get to the end of your rope. So if you have a dog at home and the dog has a little rope toy, let this be a reminder that stress reduction has to come before the end of your rope.

Kathleen Lisson: [00:19:00] And now I’m showing like my little Gumby doll, because you. Need to be like Gumby, especially if you’re in cancer treatment, cancer survivorship, you need to be flexible. You need to have stress reduction practices that are flexible. If I was in a small group, and we are, teaching with each other, so I have a little bowl and the easiest thing that you could do is just take, when you get something from the deli, you get that plastic container and then clean it out. Or the big thing is what is it like the Danish butter cookies that our parents always put the sewing kit in. So you don’t have to get a fancy container, just reuse whatever you have that’s in your kitchen.

Kathleen Lisson: Read through and think of just it’s a great time to brainstorm your life. What are the stress reduction practices that really speak to you? It could be the 55 breathing. So you write that down on a slip of paper and you put it in your container. And then it’s [00:20:00] really great, especially if you’re in a family and his mommy stressed out, is daddy stressed out?

Kathleen Lisson: Bring the container to mommy and let’s pick out something we can do together. So some things that I have are like a stress ball. And it could be one of those soft. Stress balls that you’re just using your hand and you’re squeezing it in your hand or something that’s a little firmer, like a lacrosse ball and just rolling that ball around your body.

Kathleen Lisson: Just that tactile sensation and opening up that upper chest with the stress ball can really help. So maybe it’s two, three minutes of the stress ball when you’re just feeling yourself go crazy. Other things are like a little candle. Is there a candle? Who’s sent that you love? Can you just light a candle and take a moment and do breathing, relax yourself that way?

Kathleen Lisson: And then other little sachets that I have some people like, so I have a sachet. That’s cedar wood that goes in the closet is so [00:21:00] relaxing to me. And then a sachet of lavender. And sometimes it’s just using our body senses to bring us back into the present moment. If we’re spinning off either into the future, into anger, into dissociation.

Kathleen Lisson: And sometimes I’m holding up like a little lifesaver. Sometimes it’s just popping something in your mouth and focusing on that taste. And then you can bring yourself, you can still address what’s going on outside. side and the whole world just thinks you’re you pop a breath mint, but you’re using this as stress reduction.

Kathleen Lisson: And then lastly, I have, I love this little, it’s a little face massager tool and sometimes just that little face massage tool. But all these are really great to have in that like stress first aid kit that little stress toolbox that you have. And then it’s something you can share with the family and you can do it together.

Kathleen Lisson: Community is so [00:22:00] important. And I love Erica, how you said in the beginning it touches one out of every two lives. And it’s because we’re in a family unit and we’re in a friend unit. And we can share these practices with our friend, our family member, our client that has a cancer history. and say not just Oh, you should do this.

Kathleen Lisson: I read this and you should do this, but let’s do this together. And I talk about different exercises like yoga Tyso, Qigong, and this is something that you can put like a Qigong video on YouTube on the TV and be like, Granti grandma and the kids like let’s together, let’s all do this. She gone together as a family.

Kathleen Lisson: Or just the two of us. If we’re hanging out while we’re hanging out on the couch, let’s just try these breathing exercises that I saw. And then that’s a great way that you can give the loved one that has a cancer [00:23:00] history, the gift of stress reduction.

Ericka Clinton: And all of those are true gifts. True. True gifts. So what do you suggest for a massage therapist who wants to support their clients with lymphedema or who at risk as best as possible?

Kathleen Lisson: so I would love for everybody to become a certified lymphedema therapist like me. I was a little bit they so they’ll talk to you, If you try to enroll in the CLT class, and they just want to make sure that We’re not going to be able to go into the hospital and bandage and take insurance and stuff like that for decongestant therapy.

Kathleen Lisson: But I have had my experience. I’ve never regretted taking my CLT class. And what I do is just help people with MLD for ongoing lymphedema care, because the CLT class lets me understand exactly what happened to them. During decongestant therapy, it really [00:24:00] enters you into you’re now there.

Kathleen Lisson: People are asking you and inviting you to these ongoing educational classes that people who aren’t lymphedema therapists don’t get invited to so you can learn. going forward, a lot of the advances in lymphedema and a lot of what garments they’re wearing and what new garments might come on the market.

Kathleen Lisson: And then that’s something that you can say, Hey, like I saw this new garment. I went to this training last weekend and they have there’s this new garment that might help you. Go ahead and talk to your CLT. Go ahead and contact your oncologist and see if that is appropriate for you.

Kathleen Lisson: So we don’t diagnose, we don’t have to prescribe garments in order, but we can say, hey, I saw this and be a resource to the person in between their every six months or every year visit to their CLT in with their health insurance.

Ericka Clinton: And so just so everybody [00:25:00] understands certified lymphedema therapists are often massage therapists. But when you’re in that training program, I think you’re also surrounded by physical therapists and occupational therapists.

Kathleen Lisson: Yes.

Ericka Clinton: folks work in the hospitalized environment.

Kathleen Lisson: Yes.

Ericka Clinton: be able to bill insurance for treatment, but no shame in the game on the PT and the OT.

Ericka Clinton: But most of my folks always come back and say, but the massage therapists are the best at the lymphatic drainage. So yay us.

Kathleen Lisson: Yeah. And famously, my teacher, when I went into the breast rehab, like another class that you can take after you take the CLT class, she said, if you are paired with a massage therapist, because it was each two people at a table, you are so lucky because that massage therapist has got those good hand skills.

Kathleen Lisson: And, but the great thing is you are sitting in a classroom when you take your CLT class. Right next to the P. T. R. O. [00:26:00] T. And when you’re going to the ongoing these ongoing seminars and there’s ongoing education, you’re sitting in a room with all of the P. T. S. and O. T. S. that treat lymphedema in your community, and they know which school you’ve gone to, and they can.

Kathleen Lisson: That is the time that I’ve actually networked. I bring my cards to every time I’m in one of those, one of those educational seminars, because the lady next to me knows that her client on Monday is going to be discharged and will say, where can I get MLD after this? And she can confidently give the card because not only have you been to the CLT class.

Kathleen Lisson: But she saw you sitting in class last weekend at that ongoing education that lymphedema seminar, and she knows that you are just as dedicated to keeping up your knowledge and staying at the forefront that she is. So it’s with great confidence that they will start referring clients to you and I’ve [00:27:00] had clients referred to me upper limb lymphedema, lower limb lymphedema, head and neck lymphedema, and then it’s great to get that reputation because now you’re the trusted source.

Kathleen Lisson: You’re the one that they will send to anytime someone’s insurance benefits have run out. And that’s where. We have the advantage if someone doesn’t have insurance benefits anymore, they can absolutely pay us cash and get in faster to our offices.

Ericka Clinton: So huge referral source. Nice way to network as well. And these are also these become an interesting set of colleagues, right? Who you can then also send people to with recommendations. It’s, a great opportunity for us as well. I was, when I was looking on your website, it said that you also work with clients with lipedema.

Kathleen Lisson: Yes.

Ericka Clinton: I had never heard of this condition until I took my certification in lymphedema management. Can you explain to our [00:28:00] listeners the difference between lymphedema and lipedema?

Kathleen Lisson: Yes. Yep. So lipidema is a loose connective tissue disease. And it’s primarily affected. It can affect all parts of the body, but the very traditional one that we will see is the lower half of the body is larger than the upper half of the body. I specifically like the torso. So someone will be in an extra large in pants and they’ll be in a medium in the top.

Kathleen Lisson: And lymphedema can also be, you can have primary lymphedema, which is a genetic disorder. Usually what you’ll see with lymphedema. Is one side of the body will be more affected than another side. Whereas with lipedema, both legs will be evenly affected. Both arms will be evenly affected. And if people want more information on lipedema, I am a co author of the Standard of Care for Lipedema in the United States.[00:29:00]

Kathleen Lisson: It was published in the journal Phlebology and it’s open access. So if you go to PubMed and type in Standard of Care for Lipedema in the United States or even if you Google it, you will be able to go ahead and read that free full text. We all chipped in so everyone could get access to it. It’s important to know that the Cleveland Clinic surgeons have done.

Kathleen Lisson: Imaging on people with lipidema, who have come in for liposuction, which is a surgery, a specialty surgery to reduce the effects of that fat deposition. And they have found lymphatic dysfunction in every single one of the people that they have imaged. So that means that MLD could be your services giving, if MLD, you could definitely take these clients and give them MLD and see if that improves some of their subjective symptoms.

Kathleen Lisson: You’re obviously not going to get them to the [00:30:00] place that they could. Get with multiple surgeries because they will usually have to have multiple surgeries, but some of the other quality of life, quality of life symptoms that they may have may be helped by MLD and manual lymphatic drainage is an amazing type of massage that you can use and give to someone.

Kathleen Lisson: It’s so nourishing and it can just make them feel better. And one of the interesting The symptoms of lipedema is they can be very tender and very light touches can be painful to them on the area where they had the lipedema fat. So this could be someone that potentially if like they, it’s uncomfortable for a large dog or a small child to sit on their lap, they may think they can never get a massage because massage would absolutely be too painful.

Kathleen Lisson: So definitely invite them. To try manual lymphatic drainage. It’s a gentle skin stretching stroke, and that may be a nourishing way that they can actually come [00:31:00] in receive massage from us.

Ericka Clinton: That’s amazing. And very helpful. And just one question are the two conditions oftentimes confused

Kathleen Lisson: Absolutely.

Ericka Clinton: Okay.

Kathleen Lisson: And lipidema is often confused for obesity as well.

Kathleen Lisson: Yeah, it’s important to get someone who knows what they’re talking about.

Ericka Clinton: Okay. Very good. Wonderful. Thank you for that. That’s really helpful information. So I guess the last thing I wanted to ask you about was something that I found out about you. That was quite amazing. And it was also on your website. Did I see this correctly that on your 40th birthday, you climbed Mount Kilimanjaro.

Kathleen Lisson: Yes. Yep. Shortly after my 40th birthday, that was my 40th birthday present to myself. We climbed Mount Kilimanjaro, which is the highest freestanding mountain in the world. Like Everest is part of a mountain chain. Kilimanjaro goes from Africa to all the way up to the [00:32:00] point. I love that trip because it’s not just the five minutes I spent standing at Uhuru Peak.

Kathleen Lisson: It was. The 6 months before it, where I was out in the woods, practicing going on these weekend hikes, building up my, my strength and that is what actually introduced me to massage on a regular basis. So I was working for the state of New York. I was not always a massage therapist. I had a complete other career in life before this.

Kathleen Lisson: Found that my 39 year old body needed massage like once a month, once every few weeks in order to achieve this goal that I wanted of climbing up Mount Kilimanjaro. I did it supported by a team, so it was not just me. And this is such an important life lesson to let ourselves be supported by a team and not always do everything, be everything for everyone.

Kathleen Lisson: Kapange was our guide, [00:33:00] and there, there was a whole team of people that helped us get up to the top. It was an amazing opportunity, over eight days, to see the entire ecosystem. We started out, in a jungle environment. We went all the way to the top, where we were walking on a glacier. And interestingly, I took a drug called Diamox which helps relieve altitude sickness, and part of that Drug is to help with breathing stability. And I found that it’s so interesting that as I’m gonna be 50 next year, so that was 10 years ago. I’m talking to people about breathing and breathing stability,

Ericka Clinton: Wow.

Kathleen Lisson: And diamox is what helped me get up get up to the peak.

Kathleen Lisson: And it was wonderful because one of my most fond memories was, the other thing with the deep breathing is the fact that, it reduces edema. So you end up going to the [00:34:00] bathroom in the middle of the night. So I went to the bathroom in the middle of the night, and I just stumbled out and wanted to go to the bathroom real quick and then try to get back to sleep again.

Kathleen Lisson: And I made the mistake of looking up and oh, my gosh, when there’s no light pollution, and you’re on the side of Mount Kilimanjaro, you could see. So many stars and so that moment midway through like this trip to see what an amazing universe, what an amazing world we live in to see the Milky Way the way it is in like pictures

Ericka Clinton: Wow.

Kathleen Lisson: it was above us and I was on this amazing life journey and this amazing marriage with my husband and this amazing 40 year old achievement.

Kathleen Lisson: To climb up this mountain and be able to see, what a beautiful experience that I’ve given myself was amazing.

Ericka Clinton: That is so awesome. It’s so inspiring. It’s just [00:35:00] so that’s when I read it, I was like, Oh, I have to ask her about that because that’s a one in a lifetime opportunity and dream. And thank you so much for sharing that. And everything you did share today, this is probably one of the most Informative podcast that we’ve done on Collaborative Connections.

Ericka Clinton: I feel so honored and blessed that you are part of S4OM. You’re an amazing educator and I just really hope that people enjoyed the time that you spent with us and all the things that you were able to talk about and maybe inspire some collaborators to get out there and train in working with clients with lymphedema.

Kathleen Lisson: Yes. Yes. And I have one more giveaway. I can’t stop giving Erica. this is my book, stress reduction for lymphedema. It’s on Amazon. But what I want to do is if you are a provider like Eric and I are. With S4OM, and you’re on that [00:36:00] list, and this is still 2023, so it’s still December and you can hear my voice.

Kathleen Lisson: I want you to contact me, I want you to email me and the email will be in the show notes to, and you’re in America, and I want to mail you a copy of stress reduction for lymphedema in your office. If you feel like this would help you, it would help your clients, if you’re helping clients with lymphedema, I want to get all these research, evidence based practices.

Kathleen Lisson: It is in your hands so you can share them with your clients.

Ericka Clinton: Wonderful. What an amazing gift. Thank you so much, Kathleen. even say how much we appreciate what you’re doing what you’re doing for us for one.

Kathleen Lisson: Wonderful.

Ericka Clinton: thank you. Thank you. Thank you. right, collaborators. Have a great day. Stay safe. And we’ll, see you soon.

Thank you for listening to S4OM’s Collaborative Connections Podcast. If you found the information we shared [00:37:00] today insightful and valuable, share this episode with a friend or let us know you love this episode by tagging us on social media. Our goal is to bring the oncology massage community the latest research, education, and best practices possible.

We love hearing from our listeners and welcome your thoughts and suggestions for future episodes. If you have any questions or feedback, you can email us at podcast at s4owim. org. Until next time, thank you for listening.