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[00:00:02] Welcome and Series Intro

[00:00:02] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Good day, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Collaborative Connections, a space for sharing and learning sponsored by the Society for Oncology Massage and the Society for Oncology Aesthetics. My name is Erica Clinton, and I will be your host for today’s episode. And I’m really excited to have with us today Allison O’Brien, esthetician, nutritionist, and oncology aesthetics educator. How are you today, Allison?

[00:00:33] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: I’m good. How are you?

[00:00:36] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: I’m doing really well. Thank you so much for joining us.

[00:00:40] Meet Allison OBrien

[00:00:40] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: But before we get started with some questions, I’m just gonna give our audience a little bit of information about you. So Allison has over 20 years of experience as a clinical esthetician and skin expert. She is dedicated to helping clients achieve optimal skin health through a [00:01:00] results-driven, compassionate approach. As the founder of Pillar Stone Skin & Company, she combines her extensive expertise in oncology aesthetics, advanced skin care, functional wellness, and nutrition to deliver personalized treatments focused on long-term skin health and confidence. I love that part, confidence. Also a board-certified nutritionist, Allison integrates skin and gut health principles into her practice, offering a comprehensive approach to wellness and aesthetic care. Since 2013, she has specialized in supporting cancer patients throughout their skin care journeys, demonstrating a deep commitment to safe, supportive, and effective care for those undergoing treatment. As an educator for Oncology Training International, Allison shares her knowledge and experience to help train skin care professionals in compassionate oncology [00:02:00] safe aesthetics. Her passion for education, client advocacy, and evidence-informed care has made her a respected voice within the industry. Now, besides working closely with her own clients, Allison is also a celebrity facialist and consultant for her leadership in spa management, advanced aesthetics, and professional education. And we are very, very lucky to have her for some time today. Um, so thank you again for joining us. We really appreciate it

[00:02:32] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: so grateful to be here. I’m so excited

[00:02:34] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: This is amazing. This series that we did on skincare is over three episodes, and so

[00:02:41] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Now would love to just talk to you about your work, which is really interesting.

[00:02:47] Why Scar Revision

[00:02:51] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: So I wanna kinda start with explaining to people what it is you do with your clients who have skin cancer. So you specifically work on scar revision [00:03:00] following removal of skin cancer. How did that become the focus of your practice? Was there, like, a person, a moment that drew you toward that focus?

[00:03:11] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: It, it really started back with my journey when I met Morag with OTI, Oncology Training International. I was a a national educator for a skincare line, and there was a couple skincare products that she deemed oncology safe at the time, and this was a new revolution in the skincare industry.

[00:03:32] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: I had personally no idea what oncology aesthetics was or, or… I knew oncology massage, but I had no idea what oncology aesthetics was. And she invited me to do a presentation on the line and sit in with the course and things, and I just fell in love with it. My… Throughout the years of my career, I started in spas and big chains and, and little day spas and salon and spas and all kinds of things, and [00:04:00] then into the medical aesthetic world, and it just, started to see people not only with cancer, but with, with just, acne scarring and things like that and wanting to make a difference in their skin and just trying to figure out technologies and things that could encompass, a, a whole treatment aspect in terms of boosting c- their confidence and, and, having that before and after.

[00:04:24] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: And I’m, I love doing the before and after. So that was how it started, was just with, with Morag and her team at the time and, and just really going from there and, and knowing, doesn’t matter the s- the size of the cancer. If it’s just a little cancer spot, or if it’s, stage four and it’s all through the person, it’s, it’s just the fact of trying to figure out something that makes them feel better about themselves and, and giving them that boost and their glow back.

[00:04:51] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: You know what I mean? So that’s how it started, but there wa- there wasn’t really a, anything else but that to, to really get them [00:05:00] into, trying to figure out something that would work. I am a huge person for and advocate for education. I have not stopped learning over my 20 years of doing this, and it was definitely learning about all the new technologies and things that could help that are going to be safe at whatever point w- I’m all for.

[00:05:18] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So yeah.

[00:05:20] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: An opportunity, which is so funny because I feel like for so many people work in cancer care, it is oftentimes just a very interesting opportunity that,

[00:05:32] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: like, opens a door that you never wanna close

[00:05:35] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: because, no, because it was like an insta-love for me with with taking the course. So yeah, it was really, I was really quite… It was quite interesting to, to do that course and actually start with the oncology aesthetics because it wa- it was something at that point, lasers had just come into effect a f- a decade before or i- into a bigger effect a decade before and things like that.

[00:05:59] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: [00:06:00] And, and, the, the way that the oncology aesthetics was taught and, and how the emotions in the room were and how much it just pushed people to try and, make their practice better and things like that. It was really, really neat to see how we could kinda combine the two together.

[00:06:19] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Yeah

[00:06:20] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: I was really, really grateful that I was able to sit in on that and I was able to to take it.

[00:06:25] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: And yeah, it’s just, it’s a world that not a lot of people know about, and I, I’m one, and I’m sure you are too, that, just trying to spread the word so much more that, people on their, their cancer journeys aren’t alone with their skin, with their, massage, with body, things like that.

[00:06:43] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: And that’s… think unfortunately, I find that so many don’t know that we exist, or they’re scared because they want to go and get a facial, but they, it’s hard to trust somebody that doesn’t know, their, what, what they’re going through and [00:07:00] things. So yeah, I, I am all about it, and I absolutely loved it.

[00:07:04] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: I thought it was a wonderful thing to be able to get into. And, and now training for it is even better, so I love wa- I love watching… a lot of my family are educators, so it was really awesome to there and be able to, continue the education train on that. So yeah.

[00:07:19] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Absolutely.

[00:07:20] First Client Consult

[00:07:20] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: So when someone comes to you right after skin cancer surgery,

[00:07:26] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: What is that first conversation like? Like, where are they on the emotional spectrum?

[00:07:32] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: Some people I think are very neutral about it. They just know I got, I had skin cancer, whether it was, a basal cell or a squamous cell or something and they’re quite neutral. They know it’s gone. They’re not really, they don’t really have that, the fear built up in them, and then some other people do.

[00:07:49] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: I think it just depends on how people are viewing it. Most are very relieved that it’s gone. I have had some people who are worried that some will come back. And just [00:08:00] giving them a bit of reassurance that, the certain types of skin cancers don’t necessarily return. Can’t quote, unquote that, but so I think when they’re, they’re just ready to have that visual knowing something was there gone. So whether it is

[00:08:18] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: that, like I said, they’re just neutral, let’s get it gone, it’s a scar, or it’s a, let’s close that chapter, and it’s a little more of an emotional attachment to it. Just depends on the person really. But I think, I think everybody, it’s I have to gauge them every time they walk through the door.

[00:08:36] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:36] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: my clien- longtime clients who I’ve, I’ve known for, 15 plus years, and all of a sudden they’ve ended up with a basal cell and they’re having to do a Mohs surgery, or they’ve got, a squamous cell starting. I’ve even had clients that have had and they just… I think that the melanoma word is, is very scary to people because they know what can happen with melanoma if it’s left [00:09:00] untreated.

[00:09:00] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So, but most of the people, it’s just a basal cell or whatnot, and they’re, they’re good to go, and then we just start them on a really simple process. I try not to overwhelm them with things, especially too because I want the skin to heal properly and whatever that the surgeon has done, I wanna ensure that I’m just adding to it instead of, aggravating it in, in some way and things.

[00:09:22] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So that’s, that’s really important to me. But yeah, the, there’s I go through a stage with them in terms of, okay, let’s start here, and then we’ll build you up. So,

[00:09:32] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Yeah

[00:09:32] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: so there’s a, there’s a process, obviously. so

[00:09:36] Building Trust and Process

[00:09:39] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: if someone hasn’t, like, considered working with an esthetician after treatment or surgery, what do you say to them to help them understand, like, what you can offer them?

[00:09:47] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: Yeah, so it’s, I think obviously I, I kinda make it wholehearted and light light-hearted and things, and just let them know everything to do with, to get their glow back, to [00:10:00] ensure that that spot’s not gonna be there forever. Some, some it just depends on the person, but I really find that it’s just, it- it pr- proving that they can trust you.

[00:10:12] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Mm-hmm. anybody. It’s not just with cancer patients, it’s with anyone with skin. Unfortunately, there’s many horror stories out there, and trying to find the right person I think is really important to a lot of people, and just showing that you’re confident, you know what you’re doing, I think it’s, I think is the biggest thing for them.

[00:10:31] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Mm-hmm. tell them that, and understanding, like we just said, is that it’s a process of healing the skin. Giving them a little bit of a background as to how the length of times it takes for the skin to really repair itself properly

[00:10:44] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Yeah

[00:10:46] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: It’s not just a scab that heals overnight.

[00:10:49] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: This is going to be probably a few months of a process I think is really a really big thing for them. So just gaining their trust and making them understand that [00:11:00] portion of it and, hopefully they, they do, they do sign up and we can get going on their journey with everything.

[00:11:08] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: But

[00:11:08] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: yeah,

[00:11:09] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: it’s, it’s hard. I- I’ve had people who have had complete horror stories and some, com- on themselves as well with some very highly established clinics,

[00:11:21] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:22] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: or they’ve made, it w- like the scarring worse or what have you. And so yeah, it’s, it’s unfortunately the industry is like that in certain places and

[00:11:32] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Yeah

[00:11:33] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: people…

[00:11:34] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So it’s it’s definitely, it’s a hard one sometimes to try and gain people’s trust, but, crossed that, when you can tell them, a step-by-step approach and giving them a little bit of more of an understanding towards things instead of just throwing services at them and everything

[00:11:50] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:51] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: is I think, I think the number one thing for, for people to try and, with.

[00:11:56] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So,

[00:11:57] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: yeah.

[00:11:58] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Okay.

[00:11:59] Peels and Microneedling

[00:11:59] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: So let’s, [00:12:00] let’s actually talk about what you do for the, the scar tissue. I know you use microneedling and peels as the primary kind of modalities. Can you tell us, like, what each of those does to post-surgical scar tissue?

[00:12:16] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: Yeah, totally. So I can’t speak on all peels, but in, in specific ones, but peels essentially help to regenerate the skin in a kind of molecular way, I guess you could say. And will… Some of them will make you completely peel, some of them don’t. The peels that I use are called AFA and it’s an alpha-lipoic acid, so it’s amino acids that’s we already naturally have it occurring on our skin.

[00:12:44] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So I’ve u- I’ve been using these peels now for, gosh, 15 years. 15 plus years. I don’t even know how long I’ve been doing this now. Oh my God. And I can peel with these guys because it’s, it’s basically the level of like a glycolic but without [00:13:00] any of the downtime. So I can peel pregnant women, cancer patients, rosacea, acne, everyone and their mother, is how I describe it to people.

[00:13:08] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: I find that I… The reason why I’ve never strayed from these is because I’ve treated so many things so successfully with these peels, and everybody has had a wonderful, wonderful result, whether it’s from my acne patients, my rosacea patients, or again, scar revision. I find because it, it rebuilds, like, how I explain it, it rebuilds like the moat around the castle, right?

[00:13:34] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So, and that’s where we’re wanting to, to really look at how the skin’s defense mechanisms need to be put back into place, if you will. So whether it’s a rosacea or an acne that’s causing trauma to the area or, or a scar or a cut or what have you those go in. So when I s- I usually depend it on what’s going on, dependent on the area, [00:14:00] dependent on, The, w- like the actual type of scar and things like that, I usually will do a mixture or I just do microneedling.

[00:14:08] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So it, it depends. It’s if someone has basal cells al- all over, I do more of the peels for them. And usually I’ll do a series of those. And then the microneedling is the function of the microneedling causing … Essentially it’s causing an injury to the skin and is then r- allowing the skin to have all its healing factors in, repair itself, right?

[00:14:35] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So when it comes to the scar tissue, microneedling’s kind of your best in terms of getting those fibrous bands underneath. And so it … But it just depends on the, on what the procedure was, what we’re looking at, things like, with … in terms of the, like what we have to do to heal whatever f- part of the skin it is.

[00:14:55] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So it, it just, it’s per, per case I guess [00:15:00] you can say or per guest. And but yeah, the, the peels I love. As I said, I’ve, I’ve treated successfully a ton of people with those, and I cannot speak more highly of those. And then the … I use the microneedling device, I use is the Skin Pen. Most people know that name.

[00:15:18] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: And that one I have seen wonderful results with as well in terms of all kinds of skin care skin conditions. Typically with anything, I start with skin care depending on what it is. So I’ll do when their stitches come out, we immediately start with either an Aquaphor or a vitamin C, an Aquaphor or some kind of cream that has, healing capabilities in it.

[00:15:45] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: And then I’ll transition them a few months after that into, the scar revision and things like that. So depending on which modality that we use. So yeah.

[00:15:55] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Okay. All right, so basically it’s like encouraging the skin to heal in the most healthy [00:16:00] way, and then also

[00:16:02] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: using what you know about triggering the healing process

[00:16:07] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: to get

[00:16:07] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: it beyond the scar tissue. That’s,

[00:16:10] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: that’s really, that’s really great, and it’s a great, like, application of what we know about all the evidence-based research that we have about how tissue heals, right? So, so the, that, that helps us understand the process.

[00:16:25] Healing Timeline Milestones

[00:16:35] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Let’s talk about, like, timing. So we start with healing the skin, and then the peels, possibly then into the, uh, microneedling if necessary. So, like, what are the, what are like the, the touchstones or the visible milestones that clients experience and how long does that take, let’s say, for scar the size of a quarter?

[00:16:50] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So, e- essentially the second the stitches come out, I’m putting something on them. So usually, depending on the stitch, how long the stitches are in [00:17:00] there you know It d- d- anywhere from two weeks to six weeks, whatever’s going on. I… The minute that those stitches come out is when I start my journey with them.

[00:17:11] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:11] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: usually I have clients that are coming to me ahead of time going, “Allison, this is what I’ve got going on. We’re gonna go and do a Mohs surgery or a pun- a puncture to just remove the whole tumor. We’re cutting it out, we’re doing…” What- whatever, whatever the surgeon’s typically doing in terms of their surgery base.

[00:17:28] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: And then so at that point I’ll let them know, “The second the stitches come out, you’re coming to see me. We’re gonna get you on to this and this.” Typically, I will ahead of time advise them to pick certain products up, because we want to ensure that the skin stays somewhat moist so that the skin doesn’t dry out and try and cause a further, type of scar.

[00:17:54] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So ensuring that they have put these components in. Now, if you look at things like vitamin E and vitamin C, [00:18:00] those are high, like high antioxidants, really helps with in terms of the healing aspect for things. So that’s the first serum that I’ll put them on is something like that, that’s really gentle, but it’s still gonna help with any of the redness, pigment, like the, the purple that sometimes comes with it.

[00:18:18] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: As well as some kind of, thicker moisturizer or healing balm or something like Aquaphor. Just depending on what’s going on. When I’ve got them onto that, that’s basically right away, and then I, with the peels, I can essentially start them pretty much right away on the peels. So

[00:18:37] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Okay

[00:18:37] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: again, as long as the stitches are out, you’ve got the okay from the surgeon.

[00:18:43] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: ‘Cause obviously I am very much one that I am not messing with anything that the oncologist is wanting to do, and I am not messing with anything that the surgeon’s wanting to do. But I also give them information to bring back to their oncology team or surgeon or whoever, [00:19:00] to let them know this is what we’re gonna be doing post-care, or post-surgery.

[00:19:04] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: With, in terms of the peels, yeah, peels can basically start right away. It de- again, going back to my peels, I can start right away. Some other peels you cannot start right away. Timeline on those really depends on the manufacturer and what they are j- the training gives you. Usually peels are pretty quick after but some of them that are stronger, a stronger, bigger one, you have to wait a few weeks.

[00:19:27] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So essentially once, once I come in, we’re looking at like four to six-week mark when we are starting with, like stitches are out, healing process is starting- All of that. And then in terms of microneedling, microneedling’s usually done, I usually start it about the two…

[00:19:47] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: Depending on how fast they’re healing, this is an assessment thing, depending on what their surgeon is saying, I usually start about two to three months after if it really needs that. If they don’t, [00:20:00] they’re going with peels, right? Or they’re going with skincare at home that has a little bit of a more activity to it that they can heal, that way as well.

[00:20:10] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So there’s three different, aspects that I can, I can do with them. If budget’s, something, then we just look at peels and skincare, or we just look at skincare and go from there. So it really ranges on what’s going on. I’ve had people who have had large tumors removed on their sides or, chest, things like that.

[00:20:31] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: And those we wait a little bit longer ’cause sometimes with the body they take a little bit longer to heal than the face does. Mm-hmm. it really depends. That’s where the timeline starts, is like that four-week to six-week kind of mark, and going from there. Some people, I can’t do microneedling on them for six, seven, eight months, 10 months, right?

[00:20:52] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So, yeah, it just depends on the person. It’s a case by case with… and

[00:20:56] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Okay

[00:20:57] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: with most things, right? So yeah, [00:21:00] it’s it’s usually about that four to six-week mark is usually when I’m getting my… getting to be more hands-on with them, so.

[00:21:07] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Wonderful. Um,

[00:21:08] Visible Scars and Emotions

[00:21:09] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: so let’s talk about scar location. When, when the scar is, like, on the face or in a

[00:21:14] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: very visible does that… How does that affect, like, the, the emotional weight of the work that you’re doing?

[00:21:21] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: Yeah, and going back to kinda that first question, it really depends on the person. I have some people who are like, “I know it’s gonna go away,” and then, and they’re totally neutral with it, and they’re just like, “Let’s fix it, whatever,” and they move on. And then I have other individuals who are very, “I have the C-word.”

[00:21:41] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: Like, they’re so stuck on the, the cancer word and, and it’s, it’s very scary to them, and it’s, it’s one of those things that they try and hide or they’re really self-conscious of. And it, it, I’ve had some that have to speak on it all the time and, and it’s almost like, I [00:22:00] think, a reassurance thing to them that it’s, it’s gone type of thing.

[00:22:03] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: And then, or explain, where they got the scar and stuff. But, and then others are just like, “Yeah, let’s just work on it and whatever.” And it’s most of the time I find really with skin cancer most of them are like, “Yeah, it’s just a scar. Let’s go fix it,” after and things. But I th- I think a lot of people know that it’s to, to recover from these things, it’s gonna be, quite easy de- depending on the time

[00:22:30] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:30] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: and everything.

[00:22:31] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: But it just, it really depends on the person. But I’ve had s- very, very few who are very emotional about it. It’s more when you get into, the mastectomies or the,

[00:22:42] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Yeah

[00:22:43] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: or, like some of those more surgical internal cancers rather than a skin cancer itself that I find that have more of that emotional attachment to it, so.

[00:22:54] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Okay.

[00:22:55] Setting Real Expectations

[00:22:55] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: what are some of the things that clients don’t understand about [00:23:00] what scar revision work can do and cannot do? And, like, how do you manage those expectations?

[00:23:06] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: I think it’s explaining it. I think sometimes aestheticians are so, involved in the science of things, and they don’t keep it simple for their client and get down to keeping it basic. Like, making it understand for the everyday person, because not everybody’s going to know a keratinocyte is or a melanocyte or, this, that, and the other thing, right?

[00:23:33] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So all these fancy names that we need to know as the background of things, a lot of people don’t understand. So I think it’s… Like I was explaining with the AFs, it’s like the moat around the castle. It’s repairing that, right? Like, things like that, I find that people really connect with that part of it.

[00:23:53] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So when I start to discuss how we’re going to fix for a scar revision [00:24:00] is, causing injury. It’s causing a, basically like a controlled injury to the skin. I’m, puncturing a bunch of little needles into your face, but your skin’s gonna rush in with all its healing factors. Just, like I said, just keep it simple stupid.

[00:24:13] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: I think it’s, it’s not saying my clients are stupid, but

[00:24:16] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Yeah.

[00:24:17] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: but I think that that’s… Just giving them the understanding and putting it into a way that- They can appreciate and they can really really sink in and understand how it all works, I think is, is the way that everybody needs to put it.

[00:24:36] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: I’ve gone… I’ve, I’ve heard even when I was management, I’ve heard some of my, my old aestheticians try and explain, nail conditions, for example, and they’re, they’re going right off, and I’m like, “You’ve lost her. You lost her.” the blank stare on her face is her going like I have no idea what you’re saying.”

[00:24:54] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So, I think it’s just little things like that that, that you just, you need to bring it [00:25:00] into an understanding and put yourself into the client’s shoes as to they don’t know what they, we do. They don’t know the science background or the, the big backgrounds that we have to have, the anatomy, the physiology, all these things to really encompass what, what our position is, and we need to understand, like, not everybody’s gonna understand the s- the structure of the skin or this or that and things.

[00:25:25] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So it’s, it’s again, just keep it simple stupid I find is the easiest, but then there’s also some people out there that really understand what you’re trying to say to them. So again, it’s, it’s, it’s a basis on per client really. I still, even with those clients, yes, I’ll go a little more into detail with them, but in terms of like the bigger words and, and things like that.

[00:25:48] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: But but it’s, it’s essentially just keep it simple stupid for everybody. I think that’s the easiest way to do it,

[00:25:56] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: and I think that helps with them managing their expectation. When they

[00:25:59] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: can [00:26:00] understand what you’re trying to convey, and they can also see the process in front of them, like everything is so much less overwhelming. and, and they know what your goals are, right? And it’s

[00:26:12] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: kind of like, okay, she said that this is how it would go

[00:26:15] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: for this period of

[00:26:16] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: time, and then we make these, these bigger kind of steps towards healing, which is

[00:26:22] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: always the best part.

[00:26:24] Safety and Contraindications

[00:26:24] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: So like what are some of the contraindications or precautions specific to skin cancer scars that estheticians need to know about before attempting to do work with scar tissue?

[00:26:38] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: Great question. So essentially, I always scan the face. I do like a, like a full scan of it. If there are lumps and bumps that I’m not comfortable with that haven’t been treated, I get them to go and get those checked out as well.

[00:26:55] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:56] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: start stimulating the skin in whichever way, and we’re [00:27:00] not sure if there’s cl- you know, if it is to do with scars that have been, treated from an operation to remove whatever lesion it is as long as they’re giving me the, the oncology team, or whatever team is giving her the o- him or her the okay, good.

[00:27:17] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: But I always ensure that if there’s something that’s just not looking right on the skin, or if there’s something that you’re like, “This is cancerous,” like I know this is cancerous, I need them… I tell them, “We’re gonna not do treatment today. I want you to go and speak to your team, and just double check this.

[00:27:34] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: If it’s okay, we can proceed.” I think that, again, setting their expectations is, and a- allowing them to understand that you, your outcome you want from them is for your b- the best intentions for your patient as well, or client I think is, is the really big thing. And then also ensuring that, we’re not going to aggravate the skin, cause more [00:28:00] issues with it, or anything of that sort,

[00:28:03] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:04] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: also where I would, I would put put a lot of it as well.

[00:28:08] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So it’s, y- I

[00:28:08] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Yeah

[00:28:09] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: just, again, managing expectations, you’re not gonna cause further in any way. And and g- people think that stuff also too, and this kinda leads back to the last question, people also think that treatment’s gonna be like that, or the healing process is gonna be like that.

[00:28:27] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: It’s not. Your skin turns over, depending on your age, your skin’s turning over every 28 days. So you have to imagine that that revision, why we do microneedling every mon- like an every month thing, or a peel every two to four weeks, because your skin is still turning over, and we’ve gotta hit that skin at the,

[00:28:48] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:49] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: right?

[00:28:50] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Yeah

[00:28:51] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: it’s, Yeah, it’s, it’s managing the expectations of the client, and making them really understand what the intention is here, your timeline, [00:29:00] what we’re doing in terms of those revision and ensuring that the skin is, is healthy enough for you to proceed with, with what you’re wanting to do on them.

[00:29:09] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So,

[00:29:10] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Okay. Is there anyone who should not have microneedling?

[00:29:15] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: Anyone who’s got a bleeding disorder,

[00:29:17] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Okay

[00:29:18] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: if they’re uncontrolled pregnancy because it can cause, pregnancy mask, things like that. There’s a few others, like cold sores and things, but they can treat those if, as long as they get those treated ahead of time to prevent a breakout.

[00:29:32] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: Those are the major ones.

[00:29:34] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Okay

[00:29:35] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: as for peels, no. With my peels essentially, no.

[00:29:41] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:41] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: as I said before, I can peel cancer patients, pregnant women, rosacea, can- like,

[00:29:45] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Yeah

[00:29:47] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: aging, everyone. So

[00:29:50] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: That’s

[00:29:51] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: right

[00:29:51] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: there’s nothing that’s a massive contraindication to them. If they’ve got…

[00:29:56] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: Obviously scleroderma is also one too, but anyone that’s got [00:30:00] scleroderma is not going anywhere near anybody with, with, in terms of massage or skincare aspects or anything. But there’s nothing those are your main components of no-go for especially microneedling. So

[00:30:14] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Gotcha

[00:30:16] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: again, going back to if they’re controlled, if their, if their doctor advises it’s fine, I will proceed.

[00:30:24] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So, I think that’s the, the, the, the understanding of what our scope of practice as a therapist is, whether it’s nutrition, massage, it’s aesthetics or whatnot, is always ensuring that you are staying within that scope of practice and that you’re not pushing those boundaries,

[00:30:42] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Right.

[00:30:43] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: us would love to at points.

[00:30:44] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: But we’re,

[00:30:45] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: We’re

[00:30:46] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: not

[00:30:46] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: thing that I would definitely say is, is very important. But yeah, those are the main contraindications

[00:30:52] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Okay. Okay

[00:30:53] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: to, And also if they have any kind of active open cancers on their face, we’re not microneedling over [00:31:00] those.

[00:31:00] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Mm-hmm. Right. Right. hopefully

[00:31:03] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: that one is obvious

[00:31:04] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: but yes, I know. It’s like when I’m telling massage students you wouldn’t massage over a burn, so hi.” Not,

[00:31:12] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: not anything that’s, that’s still in a healing process, so to

[00:31:15] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: speak. Um,

[00:31:17] Microneedling Training Path

[00:31:17] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: so how do you go about getting educated to use microneedling?

[00:31:23] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Obviously oncology aesthetics is a whole course that you would take, but microneedling is separate from that, correct?

[00:31:30] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: Yeah, so up here, like coming from Canada, obviously the States are gonna be a little bit different ’cause you guys are per state. We’re the same with the provinces. We’re per province, but the, the basis for a lot of the education is the same throughout all the provinces. some some schools if you go for your laser technician or your medical aesthetics, they will teach you the basis of microneedling.

[00:31:55] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: But essentially with microneedling, a lot of it also stems from the [00:32:00] company you buy your machine from will train and certify you. So

[00:32:05] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Oh, okay

[00:32:06] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: yeah. So with the Skin Pen, I went through intensive tre- intensive training with them. I have my certification with Skin Pen. I also have my certification with Dermaroller.

[00:32:17] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So it just depends on the, on the product that you’ve used in your past, your future, what not have you. But all the different, let’s say, laser companies or skincare companies or anything will all provide training for you on their specific device, skincare all of that, so you have those certifications with you.

[00:32:35] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So

[00:32:36] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Okay. Okay, good

[00:32:38] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: to know. Good to know

[00:32:39] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: majority in the States as well. Yes, as you said, oncology, the on- the OTI training is to, to learn about cancer and how to treat or work on a cancer patient, so it doesn’t have those modalities as a backing. And it is more of a neutral course in terms of not every aesthetician’s gonna be doing [00:33:00] microneedling, right?

[00:33:01] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Right

[00:33:01] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So it just depends on s- A lot of them just love to do their facials. am the opposite. I love doing fa- I love doing facials, but I also am one that I’m go big or go home. I wanna fix the solu- you know, give you a solution, and I wanna fix the issue, which, sometimes is a blessing and a curse, but it works, so

[00:33:22] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Okay, that’s great.

[00:33:24] Growing Oncology Aesthetics

[00:33:24] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: So let’s talk about the big picture in terms of scar tissue work with oncology aesthetics. Not a lot of people, as you said early on, are really aware of the value of an oncology aesthetician and

[00:33:40] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: what they can provide, whether it’s just scar tissue, negative side effects on the skin of chemotherapy, radiation, all the things.

[00:33:49] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: What do you think needs to change for this work to get the respect and the referral pathways that they deserve?

[00:33:56] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: I think really working with the hospitals and, and, [00:34:00] and having the oncology teams understand what we do and how important it is for us to be, a complementary modality that they can have in terms of their relaxation. You really gotta think about when a cancer patient’s going into that hospital and they’re doing chemotherapy, right?

[00:34:22] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: how many days a week, it’s radiation or per- per month, I should say as well, with their chemotherapy, they’re staying there for hours upon hours a day. I think that the medical teams, God bless them for what they do, but some of them don’t have the compassion like we do because we don’t, we, we aren’t trying to focus on just fixing their cancers.

[00:34:49] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: We’re trying to do a whole body approach. So, mind, body, and, wellness or whatever you wanna call it. I think that really getting into those, [00:35:00] treatment centers, volunteering, giving hand and arm massages while they’re getting their treatments done, if you’re, permitting or whatnot.

[00:35:08] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: Really getting into some of those cancer support groups in your area and really getting them to, to, understand what you do as well. There’s, it is not a very well-known… Oncology massage is more well-known than oncology aesthetics,

[00:35:23] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:23] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: think that it’s, it is, it is something that is needing to be burst out through the doors, and I think every esthetician needs to be trained on it.

[00:35:35] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Hmm

[00:35:36] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: and per- my apologies to any cancer patient listening to this, a cancer patient’s always gonna be a cancer patient, whether they’re com- they’re, they’re cancer-free for 20 years, they’re still a cancer patient, right? So, there’s still a level of education on understanding how need to be able to approach them.

[00:35:58] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: W- that, and, and, and [00:36:00] it doesn’t matter if they’ve been clean bill health for 30 years. If they’ve got lymph nodes removed, we need to, like, the, your mind goes into a whole different state rather than this is just everyday client and I’m doing a facial on them, right? So, I think that’s, those little things, the referrals, the people understanding, the getting out into the community but, allowing the medical team really needs to know what we do.

[00:36:27] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: I think that’s, that’s vastly important, getting into those cancer centers and feeding those lovely ladies in the, in the front end some Timbits or some Dunkin’ Donuts or something just to, like, get through that first line of defense. Because if you walk up to a cancer agency and go, “Hi, I’m Allison.

[00:36:45] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: I’m an oncology esthetician,” they’ll be like, “That’s nice,” like

[00:36:48] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: What are you doing here?

[00:36:49] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: Yeah, like, “Why are you here?” So I think it’s, it’s one of those things that people really need to tell their cl- their friends about, tell their… ‘Cause [00:37:00] everybody knows someone with cancer. Every single person on this planet knows somebody who has had cancer or is going through their cancer journey, right?

[00:37:08] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: If you haven’t, God bless you, because I, but I think it’s really getting into understanding that there is a medical side to, or paramedical side to us, or whatever you wanna call it that is vitally important for people

[00:37:23] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Okay.

[00:37:24] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: Simply, right? yeah, yeah, I think it’s, it’s just, it’s, it’s getting those guys to knock down the doors.

[00:37:31] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: It’s, it’s funny kinda I feel like I’m in my, my dad’s, my dad’s old space. So my dad was a chiropractor, and back in the ’80s chiropractors were like voodoo doctors to like GPs and all these guys, right? And I remember my dad always, always, always, like, y- thank God my dad had confidence ’cause there was so many that even t- today they’re like, “Oh, your back’s out?

[00:37:58] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: Oh, go see a [00:38:00] physio.” And they still look at chiropractors as, as not, not an essential

[00:38:06] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: Service for people, or massage, so it’s, it’s really funny, this, like, 360 approach where I’m like, “I’m essential to cancer patients,” just like my dad was back in the ’70s and ’80s, so it’s like, it’s kinda funny.

[00:38:20] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: I kinda chuckle about that. But it’s, I think people, if you really wanna look at it as, like, the, the lack of understanding as to what you do in your profession, whether you’re an osteopath, or a Reiki master, or an oncology esthetician, or a massage, or, this, that, and the other thing is people having to know that there’s so many more modalities out there for healing, and it’s a whole…

[00:38:43] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: Anything in this world is whole body healing. Anything, right?

[00:38:48] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: yeah.

[00:38:50] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: But,

[00:38:50] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: That

[00:38:50] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: was a great analogy.

[00:38:51] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: rest his soul, but he yeah, it was kinda funny to, to think about that ’cause I was, when I was talking about that, I think it was a few, couple months ago, I was like, [00:39:00] “My God, my dad was in this exact same position at one point in his career too.”

[00:39:04] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: So

[00:39:04] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Yes.

[00:39:05] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: funny, but

[00:39:06] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Yes

[00:39:07] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: But yeah, I think it’s just people needing to understand what you do. I was at this, a, a car show on Sunday, and I had my my hoodie there ’cause it was a little bit chilly, and on the back, I have it, it says my logo, and then it says, “Skin, nutrition, and cancer.”

[00:39:22] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: And then it says, like, a few things bel- below. And they’re like, “What do you, what do you mean cancer? What do you do?” So those talking points, right? And then people going, “Oh.” Oh my God, that’s so cool. Like, how do you do that? Like, what do you do? And then being able to explain from there, right? So

[00:39:39] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: yeah

[00:39:39] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: That’s wonderful.

[00:39:41] Hope After Surgery

[00:39:41] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: All so let’s, let’s finish up with thinking about the person who’s just had skin cancer removed and is sitting with a new scar. What do you want them to know is possible about their healing process?

[00:39:54] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: Oh, great question. It is not an overnight. Nothing is overnight [00:40:00] for healing. But it will heal

[00:40:03] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:03] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: and we can make the scar disappear

[00:40:06] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Oh, that must

[00:40:07] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: feel wonderful

[00:40:08] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: Or we can minimalize it as much as possible where you don’t even realize it’s there anymore,

[00:40:14] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: That’s amazing. That’s

[00:40:16] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: amazing. Yeah.

[00:40:17] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: And I’m sure that feels really good to hear

[00:40:21] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: 100%. There is there is a, a way to, and this is for all scars.

[00:40:27] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: This is not just for all scars, depending on the scar. But if they have, if they’ve had a Mohs surgery or if they’ve had, like I said, just, like an eyelid one, or they’ve… Any kind of, surgery on their face, we can minimize it. We can make the scar heal and go away to the point where they won’t think about it.

[00:40:49] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Ah

[00:40:49] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: of those surgeries, especially Mohs surgeries on the nose, they’re gnarly looking.

[00:40:54] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Yeah

[00:40:55] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: Those, Mohs surgeries unfortunately, and if someone’s had grafted skin,

[00:40:59] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: [00:41:00] Mm.

[00:41:00] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: g- that is a scar that sits with you for a pretty long time, because they’ve grafted thigh, thigh skin or what have you.

[00:41:08] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: And these are things that can absolutely be fixed. Absolutely be fixed. That is wonderful. is wonderful. And that’s wonderful for hear for people because I feel like with cancer patients, there’s all of this unknown. But if you can just make one thing better

[00:41:27] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: Yeah

[00:41:28] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: They have so much more resilience to

[00:41:31] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: deal with anything else that’s coming,

[00:41:34] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: right? Yeah, yeah. And that’s one thing that, like I say to people all the time, they’re, people ask me, “How do you deal with w- you know, a patient who’s dying?” And I’m like, “I give them one hour my time away from their world. It’s an escape for them.” And that’s the same for oncology massage or w- whatever you’re doing.

[00:41:56] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: Their hair, their [00:42:00] tattoo, whatever. You’re allowing them to escape for at least an hour away from what they have, their, their new normal or whatever it is. You’re allowing them to escape. So if I don’t see them again, God rest their souls, and I am to be able to give them that

[00:42:19] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Absolutely. Absolutely. Said. Said.

[00:42:22] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Oh my goodness.

[00:42:23] Closing Thanks and Wrap

[00:42:23] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Thank you so much, Allison. We

[00:42:25] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: so

[00:42:26] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: appreciate your time. This was amazingly informative. And just I know that I got some information now that I can give to people and I hope our listeners will take what you said and be able to just be more informed about

[00:42:43] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: skin cancer scars

[00:42:44] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: Yeah. I’m

[00:42:46] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Wonderful

[00:42:46] Allyson O’Brien | Pillarstone Skin & Co: and I’m glad I could help, so yeah

[00:42:49] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Thank you.

[00:42:50] S4OM/S4OE – Ericka Clinton: Thank you again. All right, collaborators, have a great day, and I hope you enjoy today’s podcast

[00:42:56]